Take 82 - Daria Polatin, novelist and showrunner Devil in Ohio

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for sure, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the oil.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

For every success, there is sometimes even failure.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default. Like everything in our business, you're gonna have to account.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose. And I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking like, well, that's it for me. I do my one-bit god. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one bit job. There will be other shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Emmy Award.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Oh, it sounds awful when you say it. Let somebody with a more charming accent do this bit. Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss is brought to you by Scriptation, the Emmy Award-winning app for anyone that reads scripts, makes notes, organise them into layers, and save hours of time by automatically transferring those notes into new script revisions. Sither listeners can get a free month of Scriptation by going to scriptation.com backslash scyther. Now that's how you do it, Noah. Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am your non-entertainment co-host, Dan Rotstein.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

And I am your in-entertainment co-host, Noah Epslin. On today's Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, we're excited to have on TV writer, showrunner, and novelist Daria Politon. Daria has been a writer on Shut-Eye, Jack Ryan, Castle Rock, Hunters, Condor before creating Devil in Ohio, as well as writing the novel it's based on. Welcome, Daria.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm ready to scream into the events of podcasting.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

So actually, I'm going to ask a question. So having um writing a novel and then having, you know, then creating the show that goes around that novel. I feel like there's two large opportunities for failure as part of that. Just because you have to complete one thing and get through all of that entails and then the second thing. Can you I imagine there were some ups and downs along the way. So can you can you tell us sort of the process of writing that book and how the rejection, failure, and adversity side of things went through? And then once you got through that, then trying to do the next part and again what happened along that journey.

SPEAKER_04 2:59

Yeah, you have to kind of take it step by step and and not think about you know the screen version while you're writing the book version. Like I had to, you know, focus um on the step that I was doing first, which was writing the book. Um, it was based on uh a true story that my producer uh slash manager Rachel Miller heard and brought to me. And I said, wow, this is this is a great story. And I had actually um ghostwritten a couple of young adult novels in um out of grad school. Um I graduated with a master's degree in playwriting um from Columbia, which was great. But then I graduated and said, okay, how do I eat? And I um ended up getting a job um ghostwriting for for Alloy Entertainment. So I had um uh gotten my feet wet in the um fiction world uh and in the young adult fiction world. So uh years later, my producer brought me this idea. I said, and you know, thought the the young adult fiction world is a great place to start for it. So we went for that. Um I sold it off of uh the first hundred pages and a um proposal for the rest of the book. And you know, I wrote it before I had, you know, while I was, you know, being a writer's assistant and you know, in that stage and really trying to get staffed um in TV. So I wrote it and I sold it, which was great. And then I got really busy in TV and I had to write it at four o'clock in the morning, during my lunch break, you know, at midnight to finish the rest of the book and complete my deadlines. So it was um, it was hard. It was uh very um challenging to um, you know, write be writing the book while also getting, you know, my dream job, staffing on Sharai and then Jack Ryan, which was, you know, I got to work with Carlton Qs, who I'd like long admired, and I loved those um Jack Ryan um films mostly, you know, growing up. So um, so it was it was it was very challenging to to kind of keep up with those um fiction deadlines. Um but yeah, uh, you know, it was really great to share that and I had to learn about the the you know young adult um book industry, which is a whole thing um and learning curve there. And um and then when we took it out for TV, it was actually kind of an opportunity to, you know, open it up and try things that I hadn't gotten to get to in the book and explore the adult relationships more and the psychiatrist's mother, you know, who brings the the strange girl home and and really lean into um some other parts of the story, which was really exciting to me. So um I really enjoyed that process of um getting a second chance at the story in a different way and through different medium. And um, you know, I'm sure some they're almost like companion pieces. You know, it is an adaptation and it is based on the book, but they're they're they're they're fairly different um shows in terms, you know, from the book is different from the show in terms of what it's focusing on. Um, the book is really about the relationship between the the two teenage girls and this kind of you know single white female, you know, um already insecure girl who is getting replaced by this new girl. And then the series is is kind of more about the the mother and why does she bring this weird girl home and you know, disrupt her family. And it's about you know the mother's own trauma and what she's projecting onto this girl. So um, so that was cool. I'm sure you know, some people like the the book more than the series, and some people might like the series more than the book. They're not they're they're not quite they're more apples and oranges um in in terms of two different um pieces or um ways to look at a story.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Oh, I I want to point out that how rare it is what you did though, because a lot of uh people think writers are writers, and a lot of screenwriters write books, and a lot of novelists try to write screenplays, but it's really rare that someone actually gets to adapt their own book. I know that you know Gillian Flynn did it famously in Gone Girl, but there's like only a handful of examples. You would think there's more. And sometimes there's a reason why they bifurcate the writer of both things, because you really have to destroy the source material often to create a TV show, which is very different.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

Why?

SPEAKER_03 7:51

But my my my question to you is actually about you know, if this was a podcast about successes, I would dig way more into this because you it's a huge success, I'm guessing, to be able to do both and a testament to you. But you um, I said before this started, I have credit envy. You have a bunch of great credits you've worked on, great shows, fun shows. And you mentioned Carlton Q. So I also got to work for on Colony. These are big, sort of iconic showrunner names. And then you write this book, or meanwhile, you write this book, and then the book comes out, and then you get to create the show, and the show comes out. And not only do you create it, you're the showrunner, the creator. You know, talk about some of those fears because before you have the shadow of these bigger people above you who are who are gonna take the blame if something is wrong, right? But now, you know, and if you didn't write the book, you can always say as the show runner, well, you know, the source material had these issues and it was faked. You are completely in the line of fire because this is all you. Can we talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_04 8:46

We sure can. Um it's a lot, it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure. There's no one, you know. Look, I there's always um, we know, challenges in the process of making television, and there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen, and you know, I'm you're you're always working for the buyer. That's you know, my job is to deliver what the buyer wants. And so there's a lot of um elements besides what I want and how you know what I want to do going into something, but I but you know, I am the default if somebody doesn't like it. And um, and and that's you know, you have to kind of keep um you have to keep expanding, you know, to you get getting these, you know, bigger opportunities, I have to expand to meet that and be able to take the success and the blame and the criticism and the compliments. So I just think of it that way. I'm like, while my while my um exposure might have been and and reach might have been less before, um, I have to take the good with the bad as I, you know, step into more people, more eyeballs looking at what I'm doing and therefore having more opinions. And everyone's entitled to their opinions. Um and you know, the the the show is uh it does um it's got a few tones going. It's kind of a a little bit of a blend genre. It's not hard horror, it's it's got some family, it does have some of the the teen storylines from from the book. So there is a lot going on in the show, and that's not for everybody. And you know, some people were vocal that it wasn't as scary as they wanted it to be. Other people thought, oh my gosh, it's so scary, I couldn't sleep after, you know, I watched an episode. So it's you you can't you you have to just uh you know take the whole bucket because um people are always going to have varying opinions on it. And it it it does just um, you know, I've worked on 12 seasons of television and my my skin's grown pretty thick, but you know, this was my baby, this was my book and then my first show. So the stakes were very high for me. So I just um I think the way that I um faced that was to, and probably the way I face a lot of things, it's just to work as hard as I possibly can and do everything I possibly could to squeeze every penny out of our budget and spend every you know millisecond I could and you know, tweaking and making the best that I could out of the circumstances that I had. And then at least I know I couldn't have done anything else. You know, that that's kind of the best I can do for myself is to know that I did my best and I tried my hardest and did the best with what I could, and that's really all that I have control over. I don't have control over the reactions. So um it's a great question. It's a great thing to to talk about as we all, you know, want to be moving forward and expanding in our careers. You have to kind of grow with it. And that's not easy to be able to hold more success, but more criticism, more pressure, more possibility of failure. It's all there. So you have to kind of take the good with the bad there.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

You know, I started this, made me think this line. I started this before there was social media, really. And uh the we were always told to ignore the fans, just keep writing, ignore the fans. But it was really easy to ignore the fans when the fans really didn't have when they had to send you a letter. You knew there was a lot out there, but they had to send you a letter. Now with social media, they have direct access to us often. And uh my my question is twofold. Has there ever been sort of a fan comment? You don't have to say what it was that got under your skin, and and so you know, how do you deal with that? And is this direct access where they can criticize work so freely and directly healthy for the creators to even look at?

SPEAKER_04 13:21

You know it's challenging because I think on the internet and social media, people say things that they wouldn't say to someone's face. And so it's it loses that human uh connection. I think if you had to say everything you type or post or review to someone's face, that it would be a lot more cordial because you'd be like, oh, that's a human being. I wouldn't want someone to say that to me. Why would I say that to another person? So that I think is the kind of sad part about the way people tend to communicate on there is that they're not really considering that the person on the other end is is a is a is a human being because you don't have to face them. So um, so yeah, there have there have been things that um, you know, something that's um, you know, this this this is based on a true story. So, and I can't get into legally what is what happened and what didn't. So then when I get kind of like what you said with like, oh, blame the source material. Like if someone's criticizing me for something, I'm like, well, that's what happened. That's the story, that's what's weird about it. Like, why did the mom take the girl? I'm like, exactly, like that's why we're doing this. Like, so you know, um, and then I think the other thing about you know, the the the internet and social media, it's there's like an there's kind of an expectation that like everything should be for everybody. And if you don't like something, then it's like an affront and it's like, well, just don't watch it. Like that's I don't I that that part I'm not like you know, understand if it's not scary enough, you turn it off, watch something else, it doesn't matter, it's okay, you know, like people get like upset if all you know 550 scripted shows a season aren't for them, you know, it's it's impossible. So it's like the expectation is um really high for um, you know, it's I hey hey to you know there is that South Park episode where like everyone um is like I'm a Yelp reviewer and I don't like this table. So I think you should give me another table. And like everyone starts going into these restaurants, like you know, flashing their credentials of being Yelp reviewers. Like, you know, it's kind of like that. Like everybody's a critic, and you're like, oh, okay, okay, I can't, I'm sorry you didn't like that thing. I I didn't have light shooting that day, so that's what we got, you know, like um, so it is a very interesting time, and then it's also there's the flip side of that, and there are people that have been moved by certain things in the story, and it's struck chord and been meaningful to people, and that's very special as well. And you know, that's on the success podcast, but I'll just mention here that there is that um side as well of connection and um appreciation, which feels very special. It's kind of why we do it, you know, to connect. We tell stories about humans and to, you know, people have been telling stories for a long time, and it's about connecting as a as as people. So there is some of that as well, which is really, really cool.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

So I'm just gonna stay on this for a second. I mean, some of this is actually all Noah's fault because I think he proudly told me that I think it was when they were on scandal that the whole thing about writers and actors live tweeting shows started becoming a thing when he was working on a producer for Shonda. I think, I mean, I'm sure other people claim that they started this, but Noah definitely has claimed it at least three times. Um, this sort of interaction. In today's world, both on this show but also on other shows. How much do people uh think about it and talk about it and care about it in terms of because there's you know there's ups and there's upsides and downsides to the social media, um particularly if you're working for streamers who obviously when these things go viral that it helps them with their numbers. So when you're in a room working on this stuff, is there a voice and is it your voice saying, you know, we need to think about this, that, or the other?

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Well, um I think uh I've so I've worked mostly in streaming, um where I'm trying to remember where the majority I mean Devil in Ohio, all episodes were delivered at once. So I know that the conversation is going to be about the show as a whole. So I know that the very last five seconds of the show are as important as the first five seconds of the show, and that people are going to hopefully, you know, be looking at it as a whole. And there are advantages and disadvantages to that. When something hits, it's like, oh my God, you got to watch that, and you tell your friends, and it's, you know, you get great numbers and it's very exciting, and it's number one, and it's so cool. But the the thing that um I think is um missing that is in the week-to-week distribution is that you get to build a conversation and you get to kind of the the the show and the and the and the comments and the perspectives get to evolve, and that is a cool thing too. So um, however, I mean, I've also I've never worked in broadcast, so I've never worked on something that was able that that functioned fast enough to be able to adjust something if if the audience absolutely hated a character because you know, we were the whole thing was wrapped essentially. Like everything that I've worked on has been probably fully delivered before they start airing. So um it is interesting. Although, you know, I come from working in theater where you have the most immediate live reaction, and you know, you have previews for a play where you where you run the play in front of audiences for a handful of nights and you get to see what's working and what's not. And so you're like, oh God, that joke, that joke, you know, didn't work. Like, let's just take it out, you know, or like um, you know, so so um I have worked in situations where the kind of live reaction was um uh able to to to be useful and used um as as as we go, but that was that was more in the theater. I guess, you know, on other shows, maybe season to season, you could kind of absorb uh a reaction. Um it's interesting. I mean, on on on one hand it matters, on another it doesn't. It it's maybe helpful to see things from an outside perspective. It might there might be a character that that you think plays one way, and the audiences just do not, you know, get the same reaction. And they're the viewer. So that's the ultimate, you know, receiver of the of of of the information. So um so so it's interesting. I like I remember hearing about lost and um and the and and and um the showrunners of that, you know, interacting with the fans and the fans speaking up about things and a kind of dialogue, you know, almost creatively happening from that. Um, but again, I've never been in a situation that was that TV.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

I definitely have. Uh because I'm on broadcast mostly. And to clarify the record quickly, it was the brain, the brain child of Shonda Rhimes and Carrie Washington on Scandal, which was like, let's live, let's do something called live tweeting. We have access to our fans on social media. There's something called Twitter. Let's just be available for that hour to answer questions. And now Shonda's the type of strong creator who won't adjust streams because of what the fans want. But later on, other creators, you know, you feel that pressure for sure.

SPEAKER_04 22:26

Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, it's all a conversation. It's it's all it's all valid. It's all and it's all kind of evolving. You know, maybe I don't know if live tweeting is still as um, you know, exciting as it as it was, because ever because everything's live tweeting, like life is live tweeting, everything is like, you know, live we're interacting with as it happens.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

So just changing tags slightly. So you uh obviously you've done theatre, uh, novels, uh TV. Um where is the uh rejection the hardest in terms of what you've experienced? Because they're all there's rejection in all of them in in different ways, but where have you felt it most personally?

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Um probably on the things that I've created, so plays that I have authored and um am the sole, you know, writer of um the the you know, this show that I've showrun and created, you know those feel the most vulnerable to share. But you know, there's rejection when I was uh staff writer and you know spent all night coming up with a a pitch for a character that I thought was so great, and I'd come in the room the next day and pitch it, and you know, the show would be like, eh, yeah, no, I don't know, and then move on. So like there's great rejection in that as well. Um it's uh um, and I've I've pitched shows that I have not sold, um, you know, um uh it's all it's all kind of personal because we kind of put ourselves into our work as writers. Um, you know, some feel more personal than others, some kind of um come from a more visceral, emotional, personal space than others, and and and those ones uh hurt more. I I took out a a book that I absolutely loved um years ago. Um, and it was period and it was international and it was very expensive, and uh I I put my heart and soul into it and nobody bought it, and it was it was it was a it was hard. That that that one that hurt, you know.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Um I had a friend um call me recently and tell me, speaking of what you're saying, say you have the best job on the planet. And I was like, the there's no doubt the job that we have is great. But as you were saying, you know, you know, the constant bombardment at us and the put ourselves on the front line, and we're we're putting our ego out there all the time. And even from whether you're a staff writer who's pitched and they've they didn't want to do it, or you're a creator and they don't like your show, every day we go out there and our ego, we said, here's our ego, let's put it on the table for you to look at and poke. Right. And so my question to you is about um, you know, because you've been exposed to a lot of this in a different number of different uh fields of writing. Uh, what kind of coping mechanisms have you kind of created to deal with this?

SPEAKER_04 26:06

It's usually not personal. And it always feels personal, but that's still probably something that I work on, you know, that that idea that like it's not that they don't like me, it's that this idea is too expensive or um um actually, you know, you know the stuff that did hurt you know wower um um it is is when I would pitch things and it would kind of be blown off, and then someone else would pitch it, often a male, and they're like, oh, that's a great idea. And I would be like, I I just I just said that like that was very that kind of thing happened to me a lot. I I worked in um my my show was the first room that I've written in that was even 50 female. Um I worked in a lot of male dominated um rooms and especially at the lower level, it was very um, it was it was hard to be heard. Um you know I don't there's probably a lot of factors for that, um, but it was um it's hard. I mean, you have to kind of go home and scream into the void. Like it's not like there it's um coping mechanisms. Um there's a few things I I do think um if you're working on someone else's show, making sure that you have a creative outlet of your own running, your own script that you're working on, you know, like making if you're working for someone else, your job is to serve the showrunners' um vision. That's your job. It's not to make the show better, it's not to um do your version of the show or what you think is better. It's your job is to serve the showrunner's vision, whatever that is, even if you don't agree with it, unfortunately. So to have your own outlet um is very important and to make sure, you know, I realized probably the times when I was most frustrated in rooms was when I didn't when I wasn't really jazzed about or really into like one of my own projects. And as long as I had one of my own projects running um on the side, um, that made me feel a lot better because it was like, okay, well, this is a job, you know, uh it's a good job, uh, but it's a job. And um and and then I also had my my own thing to my where I could have you know of a full voice. Um I think uh like exercise, even if it's like walking, like there's something about like getting things out of your system physically, I think is important because the our jobs are so sedentary, you know, and like you sit all day in a room and then like you go home and like sit on the couch and watch TV and relax, or you know, or sit at a dinner or something. Like there's something about moving, going for a walk, getting outside, looking at trees or dead grass or whatever, like that it is always helpful for me because our focus, you know, gets so narrow and we just get these blinders on. Um, so remembering that there's a world out there, you know, and I I have a son now who is two and um wonderful. And so, like spending some time with him and like putting my phone down and just like being in the moment with him, I'm like, oh, like, you know, you just get a whole different perspective and you know, get to enjoy like a toy truck or you know, explore something exciting and to him, you know, that's just like refreshing. So, or seeing friends, you know, making sure you're having um good conversations and venting to, you know, a couple close friends and just making sure you have other things going on. Um, because again, these jobs are are are really intense and they're um very consuming and and and it's good we we put a lot of ourselves into these jobs, even you know, not when they're not our own show and um and and you know that and we get paid well and we're invested and that's exciting, but making sure that the rest of um the that that the rest of my world still has other components going on. And that's like near impossible when you're showrunning because like uh you know I was working 18 hours a day, seven days a week, like no exaggeration for two years, and it was uh brutal. Uh it's very, it's very, very, very hard. Um, so then it's like, okay, well, I'll take this phone call and I'll walk around the block. And so I'll be like huffing through like the call. Like, but you know, it's the best I could do, you know, it's like, or just like taking, you know, 15 minutes uh of a lunch break and not sitting in front of the computer and just sitting outside, you know, for a couple minutes and just getting a little bit of fresh air, like just trying to find those moments of grounding and reconnection and um, you know, remembering that you're a person who does other things.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

We might want to circle back to that 18-hour day comment you just made. But I have a couple a couple of questions based on what you were talking about. And one comment, my friend calls those stolen, not they're not stolen pitches, but those adopted pitches. The word he he uses for that is inception pitches, and it's sort of spun it as a positive. Oh, that was an inception pitch from what so-and-so. And you're like, oh, that's kind of a good way to look at it that somehow it got into their head. And granted, it can be really painful. And then after that, you had mentioned sort of offhand that your room was the first room you'd been in that had been 50% woman. And uh we had Cheryl Anderson on very early on this podcast talk about that as well, the importance of hiring for for her, of hiring women on her show. And obviously, you know, there were diversity, equity, and inclusion sort of buzzwords these days. And I think studios sort of make an effort to make it real, but they and there is efforts, but they don't always seem to land or come from the heart or stick or whatever. Talk a little bit about diversity, equity, and inclusion from your perspective and maybe how it makes your stroke your show stronger or how it affects the end product.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Yeah, it's um it's interesting. I mean, I think I, you know, it's been a pipeline issue, right? Like there weren't as many I'm also uh Egyptian, so um, there's been there hasn't been as many women and um non-binary and um um BIPOC um people getting experience and exposure and opportunities, so there's less in the pool, so then they were less um, you know, picked for jobs and then are underrepresented. So it's a very hard cycle to to break because you have to really restructure that pipeline so that there the the what's coming into the pipeline is more balanced and that those people are getting experience. Because, you know, when you're when you're 10 years ago when you're looking at number twos, you know, there are double the amount of male candidates than women because they just have done the job before and they've gotten experience and they've gotten the training, and the women hadn't you know reached those places in the pipeline as much. And I'm really um glad that it's changed, it's definitely um been getting better, and I do appreciate the efforts. Now, there was just a um um publication that came out, a study that said that there there have been gains for for women and minority um showrunners, however, they tend to have lower budgets than the white male showrunners. And that rang very true to me because Devil in Ohio is the lowest budget show I've ever worked on. And that was my own show. You know, I've been working on 10 to 15 plus million dollar episode shows, and I'm very glad to get my own um first show, but you know, also it's my first show. But there are other people who are are their their first show budgets were not looking like mine. So um, so it's definitely getting better, and I really hope we continue to, you know, challenge the norms and um and it is still going to be a pipeline issue because there are still more experienced male, you know, showing or people who, you know, have have things more under their belts because of the nature of how this this pipeline's been uh running. But um it's it's better. I mean, I there were rooms where I was the only woman in the room, actually a couple. Um again, I I also tended, you know, I worked on um, I guess more sort of male skewing shows, action, uh, espionage, um, and uh the Stephen King show is more hard horror, you know. So those tend to be more um have more representation from men historically. Um I just tried to hire um I tried to hire the right person for the job, but I um and there again, there were plenty of male candidates for things. So I I probably had to to dig a little more um looking for women and um non-binary and minority um candidates for things. Um because also in a good in good news, there well, there aren't that there aren't as many, and they're also all busy. So you have to dig a little bit more now. And I'm glad they're busy. And again, it's like the pipeline. So it's like hopefully that pool just keeps expanding. So there's as many, you know, mid-level Latinx women as there are, you know, mid-level white white men, you know, that that became um an issue um as well. But um no, it's it's it's right for it's always fine to find the right person for the job for me. But um if that can be uh I I I'll always try to lean toward that being a woman. And if it's if I don't find the right fit and I find a better fit in a man, that's fine, you know. But I um in my my room was um including myself for women, two men. I hired women um as a writer's assistant, script coordinator, and my assistant, and I invited them all to be in the writer's room uh with us. So um again, the more I can help bring people into the pipeline, then the more there will be, and the less of a um experience problem there will there will be. Did I answer your question?

SPEAKER_03 38:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Okay. Absolutely do. That's a great answer. Thank you for that. I guess now that you've showrun a show, which you happen to have written the book for previously. Where do you go next? Because you can't presumably only showrun shows where you've written a book from now on in your career. That feels I mean you've done it once, but it feels like um that's quite a high bar. So, but presumably now you've showrun, you want to stay showrunning, but you know, are you what are you looking at for your sort of the sorts of projects you might want to work on next and sort of I imagine showrunning a show that was created by somebody else might be something that you want to do, but it'd be interesting just to get a feel for sort of when you control so much of it, what are you prepared to give up for future projects?

SPEAKER_04 39:28

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I mean, I think eventually I'll I will, you know, can showrun something that someone else has created. At the moment, for me, since I'm coming off of this, uh I'd really like to um create something that I run next, whether that is based um on uh IP or another book, or uh, you know, someone else's. I don't have another book yet. So I that I'll have to that'll take me another few years. Um but uh you know I I I'd I'd like to create uh my next show because I want to, you know, do it again. A little addictive. I mean I mean later in my career, I think uh be fun, you know, and uh, you know, uh again, long term I'm also interested in supervising and mentoring and um, you know, helping other people bring their projects to life. Um uh so we'll see how those um play out. Uh and um, and I was lucky that my uh experience, um I mean, talk about rejection. It took me a long time to break into staff writing. Um it was um it it was uh it was hard. Um but uh I I was lucky that by the time that that Devil in Ohio came up to to be um uh Greenlit, that that my career had gotten to that place and I had gotten the experience that that it lined up. Um but uh but you know when I sold it a few years before that, it was still a conversation where they're like, well, maybe we should put something on to someone on to supervise you. And I was like, no, no, no, I know how to do this. Like I've been doing this. Let me let me do it. And so I still had to advocate for myself, uh, you know, even having all the experience that uh I had. Um uh yes, does that did that answer the question? I do want to write another book, um, but yeah, it takes a while. So it's a long process.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

So uh unfortunately we are near the end of the podcast in the beginning. So we have to ask the final question which we ask every guest, which is if you could give a single piece of advice to somebody wanting to enter the industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 42:12

Be a detective, um stay curious, investigate, stay um tenacious, right? Like when I started, I just like learned everything I could, met everyone I could, read everything I could, watched everything I could, emailed everyone I could. Like, um you have to be very persistent, you have to really, really want to do this career. It is not for the faint of heart, it is very difficult. Rejection is hourly, it's constant. Um, and um, and so to kind of take this posture of of investigating and learning, okay, that didn't go the way I thought it would uh it would. Let me investigate this other angle. Okay, I learned something there. All right. It takes it away from being a personal rejection to, oh, I didn't know that about the industry or that type of relationship. What I did there, that didn't quite work. Let me try something else, you know. So um I really like the idea of thinking as myself as as an investigator, as as a you know, detective trying to figure things out. And sometimes I get them and I break the case, and sometimes I don't. And you know, I'll open up a new case, you know, like um again, it kind of keeps it it keeps it away from feeling personal and the rejections of feeling personal and like, oh, I didn't I didn't get that job. Maybe I didn't have enough information, you know, like maybe I I didn't have the information that they wanted for this role. Okay, that's fine. You know, it it's um just helps things keep helps keep things moving for me, and I think it's a helpful way to think about things.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Yeah, very good. So look, Daria Pollaton, playwright, author, show creator, show runner, uh, creator of the show that was the number one show on Netflix in the world, despite having a smaller budget than you probably deserved. Thank you very much for being part of the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 44:46

Oh, thank you so much. What a pleasure. This is great.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

Thank you so much. Well, that's a wrap on this episode of Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. As of always, it's this episode was brought to you by Scriptation, the screen writing and annotation software that at the very least has made my life easier and will make your life easier as well. Uh, we'd like to thank our wives who put up with us recording these episodes in our offices and basements and closets and bathrooms and anywhere we can get a little space to record an interview. And of course, we want to thank James Launch, who provided us with the great intro and outro music.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Uh if you want to find us on social media, you can find Noah at NEVSlin on Twitter, tweeting a variety of writer-based nonsense and uh some terrible puns and occasionally begging for sponsorship. Uh if you want more refined tweets, mostly about football and whiskey, you can find me at Dan Rutstein. If you're interested in buying a copy of Scriptation, if you go to www.scriptation.com backslash stiffer, S-I-T-H-A, you will receive a special discount. Thank you very much for listening. As always, we appreciate you. Uh please give us any feedback, mostly positive stuff about me, and we will see you next week.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

And if you do say a negative thing about Dan, there is a chance I might buy you a free copy of Scriptation Boxing.