Take 75 - Showrunner Joe Barton, Giri/Haji
Apple Podcasts 
Spotify 
Podchaser 
RSS Feed Any of us who've been in it for long enough, our entire career has been littered with jobs that we didn't get, projects that we thought were gonna go for shore, dozens of unproduced scripts littering the floor.
SPEAKER_02All of us are running into both major and minor failures in Hollywood every single day.
SPEAKER_00For every success, there is months, sometimes even years, of painful failure. This is one of the only businesses I can think of where failure is the default.
SPEAKER_02That's the norm. You have to be able to persevere.
SPEAKER_01That process takes care. I was being told by my manager it's yours to lose, and I promptly lost it. And I remember thinking, like, well, that's it for me. I blew my one big shot. What I've realized from that moment is it's never one big shot. There will be other shots.
SPEAKER_00Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss. And by popular demand, people are saying, you know, your episodes are great, but why don't we hear Noah and Dan being mean to each other for a couple of minutes before each show? So we decided that uh for this week we would return with our discussions. Good afternoon, Noah.
SPEAKER_02Good afternoon, Dan. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good.
SPEAKER_02I just want to say you I haven't seen you in a bit. Looks like you've been eating well.
SPEAKER_00I'm not sure you can make jokes like that anymore. It's inappropriate. But um we're we're gonna have a little break. Uh so we thought we'd tell you about it. So, Noah. We should tell people why we're having a break. It's not just that we're lazy and we don't like podcasting. Actually, there's quite a lot going on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, we are both in the middle of some crazy life moves and changes. Uh, Dan got promoted, I think I can say that, Dan, to president or of his soccer club. So he's uh official. He never, you know, I'm I can actually proudly introduce him to people now where I was a little bit more, you know, the vice senior vice president, and now I can actually loudly say he's the president of a soccer club. And uh I think it's safe for me to say that we're we're moving to Hawaii. So we are there's just we're switching houses, selling houses, you know, going to a different place. So it's life has gotten chaotic. Dan, can you tell them tell them a little bit more about what you're doing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, well, um, we've just bought a house, which um in England when people move house, it's just oh wait, well done, you've moved house. But loads of Americans like, wow, you've bought a house. That's the American dream, which I don't think I'd really appreciate it. Although, based on how much the house cost, um, it it's it's a dream or a nightmare, um, depending on how you want to look at it. But yeah, so there's just been a lot going on, you say getting busier at work, um, and much as we love doing this podcast, uh, even we need breaks. And obviously, Noah is very much uh a very busy writer on a very successful show. So, and he's moving to Hawaii because being Hawaiian and working on a show called NCI's Hawaii wasn't enough for him. He actually has to go and go and live there. Um, so I think my kids are upset that his kids are leaving. I'm not all that fussed about it. Um uh so.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so we're gonna come back. I think we're gonna take a three or four week break. Uh we're gonna we're gonna give you guys this episode, which we'll talk about in a second, and we're gonna have one bonus episode for all of you to listen to, and then we're gonna take a few weeks off. Uh and then towards the end of August, we're gonna come back with a whole bunch of new episodes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. So, no lack of commitment to the show. We're just in the way that I think network television works, we're just you know, we're gonna leave you with a cliffhanger, uh, and then we're gonna have we're gonna end on an excellent episode, have a little break, and come back with another excellent episode. So, talking of excellent episodes, uh, you will have noticed it's been great. We've had a couple of British people on the podcast, which I know a lot of you like because obviously, for all the reasons Americans love British people, their humour, politeness, their talent, um uh how articulate they are, and so on. So, we've got another British person for you who it was great when he joined us. So, it's Joe Barton, um, and he appeared on the screen, and he's like a better version of Noah. He was sort of thinner, um, better tattoos, fuller beard, better baseball cap. Um, he's basically the sort of the friend I wanted to have, but I got stuck with Noah. But um fascinating guy, great storyteller, some fantastic stories about waiting for waiting in the snow to receive mail, and a hilarious story about one of his earliest rejections.
SPEAKER_02It was slightly unnerving to see a slightly more talented, handsome version of me staring back at me in the zoom for the entire 45 minutes. No, but Joe, Joe was amazing, and he had some stories. Uh, and I you know, I told Dan before the started that you know, had it been another podcast, I would have just sort of been fanboying out about Giyhaji, which is his one of his Netflix successful shows that I loved. But we did get into the weeds, we talked about some failures, we have some stories that we've never heard before, some failures, and I think some things about that frankly will resonate with the the people that listen because he talks about how he broke in, some of the issues he faced, even getting an agent and manager, which is the number one question that I always get when people ask, you know, about the industry is how do you get ready?
SPEAKER_00So, look, I mean, obviously, our podcast is about rejection, failure, and diversity in the entertainment industry, but um for a variety of reasons in both of our countries, the world's a little bit of a shitty place at the moment. Um, so thank you everyone for listening to the show. Please try and enjoy your summers and be nice to each other. And we look forward to rejoining you again uh after a few weeks.
SPEAKER_02See you later.
SPEAKER_00Welcome back to Screaming Into the Hollywood Abyss, a podcast about rejection, failure, and adversity in the entertainment industry. I am British and excited to have other British people around. Uh, and I'm Dan Rutstein and I am your non-entertainment co-host.
SPEAKER_02And I am your I am still your industry and still your non-British co-host, Noah Evslin. On today's podcast, I'm thrilled to have screenwriter, TV writer, and show creator Joe Barton. He's written such movies as iBoy, The Ritual, Encounter, My Days of Mercy, and is currently working on the Cloverfield sequel. And he's created and executive produced such shows as Gidi Haji, Half Bad, and The Lazarus Project. Welcome, Joe.
SPEAKER_00Thanks very much for having me. So part of my research for these podcasts, I always sort of think very carefully about opening questions. And then in our mic test and pre-warm-up, you Joe said you'd been fired from a Batman project. So that's my first question. Tell me about being tell me about Batman and being fired.
SPEAKER_03Um I just assume that's why he'd asked me on the podcast. It was my my most public failure. Um what can I tell you about being fired from the from the Batman show? Uh I didn't even know if like fired is the right word. I mean, it's probably the right word. Um I was working on it and then I was removed, so I've been in guesses, but no one ever says fire. But I was non-consensually removed from a project. Um by fire trying to think of the expression they used. Uh gone in gone in another direction. I think was what was what they said, which is just a nice way of saying. Um, but you're not working on it anymore. Um, but yeah, I don't know why uh what what to say about it. I was working on it for about a year. Um I met some nice people some nice times, didn't work out.
SPEAKER_00See, that's one thing we we we talk about a bit on the podcast. Everyone's got lots of stories of projects they work on that die or you know being fired and so on. But there is that in your world, there's that very grey area. In if you're in a linear employment organization, if you're working for a bank, you're either working for them or you have been fired for you know misappropriation of funds or or whatever it is, general incompetence. But in your world, it is actually, you know, you're they replace you with somebody else, or um you're moved aside, or they downgrade you, or they straight up fire you. But that does the fact that it's not a traditional firing, as in you know, you're you're working in a local shop and then you get fired for being bad at your job, does it make it easier that some of the firing is less sort of binary, or is it worse in a way because it's not a straight up we don't want you anymore, but it's a sort of we sort of don't want you for reasons that we might not explain?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's interesting, man. Um I suppose it is I suppose it's better and worse. Like I suppose it's not you know, if you get fired from a bank or a shop or something. Yeah, there's probably there's probably a moment where you get taken into a room with your manager and get yelled at and removed. But this one, yeah, it's sort of uh it's maybe it's it's like a a gentler, slow, slower death, I think maybe that you can sort of see coming and then eventually, eventually it arrives. But I for me it was like I was well, I I I found out via my manager or my agent and my manager at the time. So it wasn't even that I so it was like being told via a third party. I never actually no one from I guess Warner Brothers or DC or anyone actually sort of got on the phone and and and and and said it as such. It was just sort of relayed to me by other people. So it was a weird, yeah. It was I found out about it in a in a sort of strange roundabout way. But I don't know if that's worse or better. It's just different. None of it's good.
SPEAKER_02Certainly not very nice. I I I've also been told that people are going in the uh in the different direction, and now that you mention it, I really want to say next time, well, great, where are we going? I want to go, I'm I'm I'm not going in that direction too.
SPEAKER_03Let's all go together.
SPEAKER_02A couple of things. One, I you know, I I was working with that company too, and I did a huge pitch for DC, and it spent, and I I wasn't hired yet, but they said you could pick your among these six projects of the among these six titles, pick one and let's develop it. Uh, and I worked for two months on the pitch deck and the pitch and whatever, turned it into them, and they never even responded. There wasn't even a currency for turning it in. It wasn't, it was like I didn't do any of that work. And then it turns out that at DC and Warner Brothers, there was a ton of turnover and change, and people lost their jobs. And so, even in their own departments, I don't think they people were going in the other direction without them. So it was it was a bit of a mess over there for a little while. I think they've they've they've righted that ship. That was a couple of years ago. But yeah, it's always extremely um disheartening. We'll we'll we'll circle back to Batman because I'm actually really curious. But I want to ask you some questions about things that went right, which is which is not the normal for this podcast. But you know, you've done some shows that had you know huge successes in both Great Britain and and and then the United States. Gidi Haji, my entire writer's room was talking about for a while. We were you that show was the morning talk, where like, did you watch the episode? Did you, you know, we we we work at a network crime show. You obviously were doing, you know, one for streaming. But can you explain a little bit of the differences between your role on that show? Uh, because you wrote all eight episodes and other shows you've worked on for the British market. You are you I had asked you, do they call you showrunner? Uh, you know, in Great Britain, you said you use the word, but it's different, it's not quite accurate. And it's, you know, you don't, I don't think you have a writer's room. So you're not running, you know, are you the boss of the show the way showrunners are the boss here, where they hire and fire the department heads? Is there somebody else you work with and you're just putting out all eight scripts, which is a huge feat.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So just talk a little bit about what the role means and and what you do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think basically we use the term showrunner in the UK sometimes, but I think it's just because we've heard you guys use it and we like it and it sounds cool. So we've started using it. Um, but we're not, it's not at all the same, um, it's not at all the same role or the or the same job or the same responsibility. So, you know, as as I understand it, you know, if I like, I don't know, if I listen to like Craig Mason talk about it on script notes or whatever. Do you know what I mean? And or or you know, look think about you know, big American shows uh and they talk about what seems to me like it's a a role that's as much managerial as it is creative. Do you know what I mean? Like the sort of hiring and firing, like you say, and that sort of producer role. But in in in the UK, it's it's it there's much less responsibility given to us. So on Giri, um, I wrote the episodes and I was involved in like uh, you know, I would help choose the director or you know, the heads of department, and and and I was involved in casting and stuff like that. But that's as far as it went, and I certainly wasn't the final sort of say. I wasn't, I I have had an important, you know, voice in the room because I was an exec producer on it. Uh and so, you know, and it was like I created the show so that it was all, you know, I was an important part, but I was definitely wasn't, you know, but there were other people who had as big a voice as me or or or bigger, and and and and I mainly just focused on on the writing, wasn't on set that much, you know, it's that sort of thing, but it's so it's it's much less one person, one big person running running the whole show, if you will.
SPEAKER_02I I guess my question, and that's fascinating, because you know, there were so many things about uh Gidehaji that I that the specificity on screen that I found really interesting, and of course the specificity on the page too. Uh, you know, who I want to circle back to we're gonna have to get Danz and ask a couple questions to this because I'm gonna have more questions, but uh, you know, so who is then the creative uh uh vision, you know, like you know, in the showrunner here in the United States, they we we do they do the casting, they do the, they don't have, they they have almost final say, meaning the networking studio is kind of weigh in, but if they want someone and we can afford them, they're gonna get that person, right? For the most part, so that it's all one vision in movies in America as a director because that person sees the project through to the end. In TV, it's the head writer, the showrunner, because they stay on as a director, cycle out. So someone has to be the keeper of the creative vision. Is that the same in in England? Or do they come back to you and say, hey, you know, what do you think of these things in episode four? Or are you already moved on like the Korean market to other projects because there's just so much writing to do when you're doing every script and you've done your part, you've given it to them, and now you're hoping someone's going to execute it the way you the way you wrote it. And what happens when there's a change? Like it like a scene needs to change or something deep in the process.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, I still definitely involved in it for right until the end. But I think the difference is the director is as well, like in TV. So it's not that sort of, I guess that's the American, is that the American model? Like directors leave the project before it's before it's finished.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they cycle out because we have, you know, let's just say we're doing eight, 10, 12, especially on shows that are above 13 episodes. You they come in different, there's a director, different director for every episode because they have to prep and do posts. And so they they're the keeper of the creative vision is the writer because they're there throughout the the entire process.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I see. Okay, okay. Well, I mean, that's kind of different as well. I mean, I guess I've done you know, the shows I worked on have all been eight episodes. So I haven't done one of those big sort of 20-episode shows or whatever. So I again I don't know if it's different or similar in America, but the the the relationship between writer and director is very close in the UK on TV stuff. I mean, it's an and it's a similar the way that people talk about it. Um, you know, when people talk about TV, they focus on the writer here, and when they talk about film, they focus on the director. But I always think it's slightly unfair on the directors because certainly my experience is they've been there, you know, from the beginning to the end, even if they're second or third block directors, they're still, you know, intimately involved in the whole process and the whole edit. They certainly don't. I've, you know, a show I'm doing at the moment called Um Halfbad for Netflix, like the directors have left, but that's just because the editing process has taken so long and then they've moved on to other jobs. But in theory, they would, you know, they would be there right until uh until the last moment. So it's it's much more uh collaborative, and I think the directors have probably more power, or they just or they have in in my experience anyway.
SPEAKER_00So I I uh I feel like we're uh we're a bit light on uh bad things happening to people for a normal episode of this podcast. You haven't started crying yet, so I'm not doing my job properly. So let's go back to a bit earlier in your career and the sort of the journey, because you you know you're now obviously you've you've had a successful show, you're working on another one for Netflix, you are. I know it's quite difficult to work out at what point you become a success, but you're definitely you you've crossed that threshold at some point you know in the last few years, so you're a success. Let's talk about the pre-success part because that's fascinating. So how what was the journey like to get to where you've got now, and how close had did you have to come to quitting and becoming whatever the British equivalent of an Uber driver is? An Uber driver.
SPEAKER_03Um a black cab driver. Uh it's how close did I get to quitting? Um I don't know, man. I felt it took it felt like it took a while. Um there was sort of, I think like I I guess I look at my career as having different sort of chapters in it. Like when I first like I left uni, between leaving university, I studied film and TV at university, and I decided I wanted to get into industry and become a writer. And between doing that and getting an agent was I guess I don't know, like three or four years. Right to know three or four years that took. And that was that always felt like to me the the really difficult bit, the the bit where I was close closest to like, oh, maybe it's not gonna happen. Do you know what I mean? Because it was just trying to work out how how to how to get a foot in the door, do you know what I mean? And it seems like such an impenetrable fortress, you know, when you're when you're on the outside looking in. It's just it I found it very, very difficult to work out how to get in. And I I tried for a long time. I mean, it took me a couple of years to get an agent. And what I would do is I would write, I I would write, I would go through this book. It's like book in the UK. It's like I can't remember what it's called, like agents handbook or something. It's got all the details, all the agencies. And I would go through that and I would try and find one agent at every agency that I thought was like low down enough to want to represent uh me, essentially a nobody. And I would write a letter to each of them, and then I would I would send them all off in one go. I don't even know if that's the best thing to do, but that's what I would do. And so then and I would try that like every six months or so, and I would get just then which meant I would just get this like avalanche of rejection letters in sort of the circular sort of every couple of months, they would just sort of come through. But like I went, like I sort of managed to like eventually firstly, everyone said no, and then eventually some of them agreed to read my work, but still all said no. And then one of them agreed to like give me notes, and then like three years later, eventually I got one agent let me come and meet him in his office, and he turned into and he ended up being my agent, but it took like that long. And I just remember like I think one time I got a rejection, and they sent me a letter back and they corrected all my grammar in my in my um application letter, which felt particularly that felt like that was a bad day. Um that I think that was the closest I've got. No, the closest I got to quitting it was Christmas, it was around Christmas because I got this letter through my door that one of those you have missed a parcel uh notices from the post office that you've got to come and pick up your parcel from the post office. And I thought because it was near Christmas, I was like, oh, it's something I've ordered. You know what I mean? It's like a present or something, I better go and pick it up. So I went, I like slogged over to the local post office. I was living in London at the time, and it was Islington, and it started snowing. And and there was because it was Christmas, and so many people were using the post office, there was a line around the block, massive line to get into the post office, it was like a 45-minute wait, and it's snowing and snowing, it's really heavy. It's like all you know, it snows fun at first. After about 10 minutes, it's just I was just freezing, and I was sodden and it was so miserable. And I eventually, after an hour, got into the post office and I got to the thing, I gave them my little card and they gave me my package. It wasn't a present, it was my script being returned from an agent that didn't want to represent me. And so I wouldn't walk home through the slush holding my shitty fucking script that no one wanted. I did think then maybe I maybe I will uh uh become an Uber driver or whatever the fuck else I would have done. That was a low moment. Um, but you know, just stuck with it.
SPEAKER_00Um after whatever this is, uh 78 episodes of this podcast, that might be one of my favourite stories, partly because I I've been in that line before, not in Islington, but I've been in the post office line just before Christmas in the drizzle and snow. Yeah. Although it has always been for Christmas presents, not for you know rejection. I have to say, they the uh the letter correcting your grammar is an extraordinary level of pettiness, which I sort of admire to an extent, but that time they spent correcting you, they could have actually spent reading your script or you know, giving you notes. That's uh that's quite a funny. Fuck them.
SPEAKER_03I say, but like I was so angry, but also, and I and the worst thing was I threw the letter away. Like I I really wish I kept it because I can't even remember which agency it was. I wish, and if I had, I definitely would spite. actually write to them with a with with a with a a detailed list of of how much money I would have made them or something. I do know what I mean. But I have I've thrown it away. But also to be fair my advice if you want to if you were a wannabe writer writing to agencies is you know check your grammar like check this belly. But it but they was it's literally like oh it was I'd written it without an an apostrophe or something and they're like by the way that's extraordinary.
SPEAKER_00It's a great shame you haven't kept it because you know next time you're on a stage winning an award you can sort of hold it up and read out or post it on social media and shame that you can see there's so a question actually about because in England uh university is a bit different to America not just because it's about $200,000 cheaper but it's different in the sense that people often study something that's nothing to do with what they end up doing for a living. So I you know my stuff I did philosophy and I'm not a philosopher. But out of your cohort or class that you work with how many of them are still working in the industry and are any of them of of of how how many of them have reached your level of success? Just for a sense of both how English people do things differently but also actually just the the fact that it is such a hard career to continue in for a few years because I'm sure quite a few of them will have dropped out.
SPEAKER_03So I don't I don't know if you've got the exact data but I've I've got a list who out of my friends has been successful. A couple um uh from my year there's another director uh another director a director called James Nunn who has he make he's still making movies and he's he's been pretty successful. He just had a film come out called Shark Bait and he does a lot of action movies and he he does a lot of work with this guy called Scott Atkins and he so he's working he's a working film director um and does stuff in Hollywood so he's doing all right um I think out of my year that's kind of everyone there are other there's uh my friend Aleem who was in the year above me just was uh nominated for a lot of BAFTAs for a film called After Love this year which is a really exceptional movie um I don't think it's been released in America yet but it was it it it was very it was very sort of it was like an art house sort of indie six he won like 11 Biffer awards and stuff was kind of crazy. And there's sort of various people uh Babak Avari who directed the film called Under the Shadow um he was a couple of years above me um yeah so there's there's bits but i it most people no I I think most people didn't go on to work in the industry to be honest.
SPEAKER_02Okay I got I got two things to say one uh uh real quick is you if you have that letter from the the agent you you please post that on social media because I think it would be something that to Dan's point. Um B, I did promise I'm going to circle back to the Batman story. So I ask some questions because this is this is something I've faced and look at faced as well. You know you you've had lots of success and things that people love. And then you write something that obviously isn't connecting with somebody on some level maybe for a commercial reason maybe for for a creative reason it's hard to know and they don't they go in a different direction. What goes through your mind let's put us in that moment you put us in the moment with the snow in England when you were getting the package and they gave you put us in the moment where your manager and agent have called you and said they're going in a different direction and in your head I'm sure because this has happened to me exactly which is like wait these other people I just worked with they loved what I wrote how did people not like it like what like the disconnect and the confusion and then what and then how do you process it and move on it had well I I had I'd been suspicious that something was up because I hadn't heard from them for a while which is never a good sign.
SPEAKER_03It had been just we but we'd had the Christmas breaks was fucking Christmas man um which happens at Christmas I the I I might sort of told the story before but like so the last I ever heard from them was I handed the script in we'd eventually got us got got a script done and the process had been really tumultuous to be honest like it'd been a difficult creative process for all sorts of different reasons but I we'd eventually got a script that me and and the and the sort of execs because there were so many different companies working on that thing but I was working with execs from um uh Matt Reeves's company sick sick from Idaho and so we'd been working on the script and we handed it into HBO uh HBO Max and the exec had rung up and sort of basically been like ah I love it it's great like really I'm really happy with this great script thank you for all your work like super excited about you know next steps blah blah blah um and then I never heard from them again like I didn't that's literally the last and that was November no that was like early December didn't hear anything over Christmas and then this is January and I was texting like um the exec I was working with Sick and Idaho and being like is there we still making the show like are they gonna and then um he was like I don't know man I don't know um and then yeah my agents called me to say that they were going in a different direction. So I assume well I know what happened is it you know it it the the execs at HBO Max had liked it but I guess when it gone up the ladder to you know the the head of drama or whatever that that that's when it had had run into difficulties um and in terms of what the reaction is um I mean it's it's bad it's not great is it it's not the call you want it's disappointing because it was like like it's like a kind of a dream job and it was very public as well like they'd been they'd announced and I'd got the job and that'd be nice. Like I'd enjoyed tweet I'd enjoyed tweeting about getting the job didn't enjoy tweeting about not getting the job didn't enjoy having to tweet I've been I'd been let go and it just felt like it was a public thing and the film was just about to come out the Batman was about to come out so there were these fucking billboards everywhere everywhere adverts for the Batman everywhere you look and it was just this impossible thing to avoid and so yeah I felt I think my initial reaction was just really pissed off about it um and I let myself sort of wallow slightly and oh fucking these one these idiots they don't know what they've lost but I you know I think with time you can sort of look back and sort of understand maybe the the decisions and the pressures that that that people are on you know execs and and all these people at these companies so you know I you yeah come to terms with it. But yeah when you get the call it's just uh it doesn't improve your mood put it like that.
SPEAKER_02And I guess especially with a big IP to make the blow easier is there these these names like Batman and Superman they're gonna throw at a lot of writers you know they're gonna they're gonna lose their job maybe if they didn't test a lot of five different writers to see which is the best and then of course they're not telling any of those writers that they're maybe doing this process this way so that they all go through this heartbreaking moment of wait, you know uh it wasn't me. I want to circle back um to kind of a nerdy um um question about process for you again with with um you know talking about um um circling back to gidi gidi haji which i which I really like and the stories that you're allowed to tell and you're not allowed to tell in in Hollywood and you you know you're supposed to have stories that you know and that you understand and you tell a story partially set in in Japan then set in in London that has Japanese speaking characters and most of it's in Japanese and how do you decide that that's a story that you want to write and then decide that you know enough about it specifically to actually not just write a you know a story but write a great story that's yeah yeah man it's difficult and I think um I've sort of spoken about it quite a lot since like I I think that the um even the the the culture from the point where where where we were given the green light to make the show to the point where it where it came out had changed and I think it's sort of you know the that sort of those conversations about who gets to tell what stories and and all of that stuff has has really advanced in the last few years and and quite quickly.
SPEAKER_03So I don't know I think if we made it again today we definitely do things differently I mean we may not even make it again do you know what I mean who who knows and I'm always open and interested to sort of have those conversations to hear from people like Giri was a story um that had come about from uh someone had my girlfriend had told me a story about she had met this Japanese detective on her crime science course and he was a Tokyo detective who'd been sent over to London and blah blah blah. So it came from this sort of sort of true life story and then had been sort of um uh you know extrapolated out from there and it felt you know this the the the the the scripts and stuff it all felt very autobiographical a lot of it did it's oddly considering I mean you know a lot of it's set in a culture which absolutely isn't mine and in a world that I I don't know about whether it's crime or or just you know Japanese culture or or the London underworld and stuff. I think I just sort of threw myself into it and was like oh you know that's fine you know tell a story wherever if you believe you know if you you know the characters and stuff. I but I you know look I mean even if you were doing it today you would definitely I think you probably want to at least hire some some other writers on it as well from that community from that culture or directors or whatever you know it's a lot of white people working on that show.
SPEAKER_00So we that would definitely be something that would change and uh and rightly so and it we and that and you know and it's still a relatively new show but yeah um it's yeah it's a different different world even from when from when we got the go ahead so I I want to ask a question that you know I I I'd say probably 75% of our audience on the show are Americans based on at least the limited podcast data we get um lots of British people have come over to America in the entertainment industry I think it's sort of it was from Charlie Chaplin onwards um but you know there's uh a a trail whether it's in in music or acting directing producing a lot of unscripted but they've all come over sort of you know the big dream of conquering America um for both you like personally but also the people you're working around day to day is it something that actually because Americans I imagine all think well they must want to come here because you know we're better and there's more money and it's wonderful but actually sort of day to day is it something that you're thinking well I think I'm ready to make the big jump to America or or is it actually not a big preoccupation for successful British people in the entertainment industry?
SPEAKER_03I don't well I think it probably is a preoccupation. I mean I think most British people grow up watching you know American films and American TV and and and sort of slightly dream about Hollywood. I don't think it's a prerequisite and I think there's a particularly now with Netflix and Amazon all the streamers like you you don't have to come to America you you you you know back in the day absolutely if you're a British screenwriter you know you had uh like four channels in the UK and you would write a BBC drama and no one outside of the UK would ever watch it probably unless it was one of those ones you know that yes Minster or something you know you know British shows obviously do make it over to America but that not you know more rarely but now you know you you have um you have when you make something you have the opportunity for it to be seen worldwide so I think I think absolutely it I for me it's important to have a show that that travels and can be seen internationally but and I know I don't have to come to America to to have that happen anymore. And I don't particularly like I don't know I've got a young family and was the youngish family but like I don't I to actually make the move to America maybe but I at the moment it's I'm able to and kind of especially since the pandemic and like Zoom started you know every evening of like a couple of Zoom sort of general meetings and I think that sort of the barriers have come down even more um and the world is a slightly sort of you know more sort of global place. So these days it feels like you can you can do your shit you know in the UK and it and it and it and it travel around the world and that's okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So what what's on your list of what to do next in terms of not so much specific projects but if you could choose to have uh you know a big Netflix uh show a feature film I guess maybe not a chance to come and you know work on an American show but I don't know maybe to go and work on one in Japan or or something like what what is the sort of big picture next step that you want to to take that will fulfill you professionally um I don't I don't know uh well I suppose it'd be nice to sort of um I I would I like to do show like so I've had like I've done a couple of shows and they've done fine like they've done okay like Gary did okay I mean it still got cancelled after one series like it sort of was a crit critically successful but no one really watched it.
SPEAKER_03And I've had a show just come out in the UK which is in the process of being sold to America and we'll see you know where where it ends up. So it would be nice to I think you know you sometimes look at uh I don't know a show that just does very very well I'm trying to think of an example what I can think of is Squid Game. I don't particularly want to make Squid Game but you know what I mean like well Bridget and I don't want to make Bridget either but you know what like you know I like a success I just like something to be successful. Um I think genuinely though it doesn't matter if it's a film or it's TV or whatever it'd be it would be nice to marry uh you know uh a critical success with with you know some viewing figures and there have been like there's been times in my career where I thought this would be the one so we talk you know like film none none of the films have they done okay like the films that the ritual I did a film called The Ritual which is probably the most success successful movie which was which did very well for Netflix though they don't really tell you the numbers but they did let us know that it done well and they're sort of you know um they were pleased with it but all the other ones are kind of sort of I mean slightly died on their ass. So it'd be nice to do you know I imagine I once worked on a show called Humans which was very very successful in the UK I mean we did okay in the in America it came out in AMC like a sort of sci-fi thing but in the UK it was super successful. Like surprisingly it was like Channel 4's biggest hit. And it was really nice to get a taste of having worked on something and it come out and it just be like oh shit everyone loves it and they're watching it. And I guess it would be nice to have that again one day.
SPEAKER_02I want to put you in another emotional moment now because you mentioned that Girihaji was uh cancelled after one season but then found legs obviously because I mean I don't maybe you don't even fully get how much the at least the writers in Hollywood talk about that show. You know you you you found success amongst your peers here people this this this show is really good we could all be watching it but um when you found out that people were actually watching your show and enjoying it and and had some of this the critical success and and underground success cold following what what were is there a feeling of like I knew it I knew the show was like what do you what do you tell yourself in those moments?
SPEAKER_03Vindication my people have found me no it's nice I mean Gary's like was the first thing I ever got that was just mine. Do you know what I mean? Like the first original idea that that had got the green lit and and I'd written all of it. So it was it was it was the first thing I felt like I'd had full creative control over. So I was very proud of it and I'm very still very I think it's the best thing I've worked on. So it's always nice you know um to know that that if that people have watched it and liked it and it's had that sort of thing. Yeah it's lovely and particularly because it didn't I mean it's just that it not loads of people watched it but I mean you definitely when something comes out like I say like you either you know critical success or like people like it or it's like it does huge numbers or you can get both or sometimes you get you know it does huge numbers and everyone says it's shit or whatever. So it it it is still really nice to know that it has you know it's like 100% of rotten tomatoes and all this sort of stuff. And it's nice you know it's not nothing it is it is a it is it does feel good. It would have liked a second series but it still feels good.
SPEAKER_02Maybe maybe it'll come back around and we have another another bite at that apple. I think I speak for both Dan and I right now when we were probably both pretty disappointed that this conversation is is you know we have a time limit and we're hitting the edge of that time limit that we're gonna have to ask our last question because I think we both like to go for many, many hours, but that's not the type of podcast we have.
SPEAKER_03So coming to the last question that we ask every single person that comes on this this uh show is if you had one piece of advice to give somebody who is just entering the industry in this case as a screenwriter or TV writer what would that advice be well when you're writing about man show make sure no um one piece of advice for entering the industry oh man it's so difficult because it's such a there's such a wide uh a wide variety of things you should and shouldn't do I suppose the thing I always say um which I mean it sounds maybe a little wishy washy but I do think there is um I I I do think that I do think eventually quality does out like cream rises to the top or whatever the the fucking phrase is I think you have to I think so I think people focus too much on the business side sometimes and forget the creative side and obviously you can't ignore the business side and and you know you still need to network and and do all that stuff and you know check the grammar in your in your application letters to agents and all these sort of things but I I think honestly the the the thing if you're very very new to the industry is is to be focusing on your craft and your writing and to um find the stories that um that you can't stop thinking about. And when I was first starting out I I would you know I was like shit I'm just gonna write some spec scripts and see how it goes and I would rifle through things and it was the ones that eventually I would I would I would hit upon something and I couldn't stop thinking about it. You know, you'd think about it when you go to bed and you think about it when you get up in the morning it's it's and you just you know you you have to love it. And I think genuinely working on things like that and improving your craft and your voice through um just making sure that you are a storyteller sounds stupid but I think a lot of people like the idea of being a screenwriter and they will buy books on free ac structure and they'll buy books on you know they'll Google who's the best agent, blah blah blah this stuff but it's actually do you are you a storyteller? Are you can you craft an ad do you love it? Do you love telling stories? And make sure you do and make sure that you have a a a gift for it and um and just focus on your voice and as as the as the first thing you do um because otherwise you're just wasting your time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah that's fantastic that's great advice so look Joe Barton occasionally poor at grammar but excellent at making shows thank you very much for coming on the podcast.
SPEAKER_03Thank you very much for having me.
SPEAKER_02Thank you Joe.
SPEAKER_03Cheers